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In Regards to the Issue that happened on Sunday GPT

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Re: In Regards to the Issue that happened on Sunday GPT

Postby Marilyn_manson » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:21 am

@ian, they are playin standard for goodness sake. Can't u just count to 11/12 to see whether he forgot to draw extra cards or not. No card drawing and only at turn 4. There is ur answer whether he forgot to draw cards or not.
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Re: In Regards to the Issue that happened on Sunday GPT

Postby lianlian85 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:25 am

Mike for ur info at the point of time both did not indicate wat turn was it and some statement did not tally during the point of time
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Re: In Regards to the Issue that happened on Sunday GPT

Postby Marilyn_manson » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:27 am

How did anyone conclude that there's extra cards when no one knows what turn it was.
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Re: In Regards to the Issue that happened on Sunday GPT

Postby Vyrus » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:33 am

@NDrue So you're infering that player B 'unintentionally' drew 4 cards which player A noticed and kept quiet about it with the intention of getting the guy DQ-ed or in this case a game loss for an easy win?

Either player B is a retard for 'unintentionally' drawing 4 cards and that player A is a master of manipulation. If his intention was to get a free win why in the world would he post on the forum after attaining his objective? Sounds like you're just lawyering here.

He's just sharing his experience of unfair treatment at an event, if it is violating forum rules to share something like this then you better ask the mods lock this thread up.

Don't feel anything is out of line,furthermore, with a controversial ruling like this and with the judge in question being friends with the 'accused', I think most people here would find this 'soft' ruling a tad shady.
Burn your mother beat your house.
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Re: In Regards to the Issue that happened on Sunday GPT

Postby killua23 » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:36 am

Marilyn_manson wrote:How did anyone conclude that there's extra cards when no one knows what turn it was.

+1
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Re: In Regards to the Issue that happened on Sunday GPT

Postby HAHAKUKU » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:43 am

killua23 wrote:
Marilyn_manson wrote:How did anyone conclude that there's extra cards when no one knows what turn it was.

+1

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Re: In Regards to the Issue that happened on Sunday GPT

Postby tallboy » Tue Nov 19, 2013 12:59 am

Personally don't think an investigation is so simple as to just ask both players a few questions and then make your conclusion from there. From Player A's story in another thread it was turn 4 by the way.
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Re: In Regards to the Issue that happened on Sunday GPT

Postby NDRue » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:04 am

Vyrus wrote:@NDrue So you're infering that player B 'unintentionally' drew 4 cards which player A noticed and kept quiet about it with the intention of getting the guy DQ-ed or in this case a game loss for an easy win?

Either player B is a retard for 'unintentionally' drawing 4 cards and that player A is a master of manipulation. If his intention was to get a free win why in the world would he post on the forum after attaining his objective? Sounds like you're just lawyering here.

He's just sharing his experience of unfair treatment at an event, if it is violating forum rules to share something like this then you better ask the mods lock this thread up.

Don't feel anything is out of line,furthermore, with a controversial ruling like this and with the judge in question being friends with the 'accused', I think most people here would find this 'soft' ruling a tad shady.
Marilyn_manson wrote:How did anyone conclude that there's extra cards when no one knows what turn it was.
^This. Hence the alternative suggestion.

We do not know the full picture, unless of course you know what really happened and can mind-read. Else, everyone's just throwing wild balls, and I'm just returning them with the other side.

From what has been read so far, the TS of the other thread received incorrect information, the player affected stepped up and immediately victimized himself, included irrelevant information ("the guy who top 8 GP brisbane.") about the judge, and a number of people tried to start a witch hunt. I'm hereby stating that I'm not accusing anyone of any ill intentions; the dots just seem to show a possibility of connecting. I leave this to you to think about, if you are interested.

Pulling in the "if you think it's violating then ask mod lock lor" reasoning is pretty ludicrous, since by your logic, if the affected player can share his view, why can't the judge share his side of the situation? Why suggest to only lock this thread up?

So let me ask all of you how one would define a "soft" and "hard" ruling.
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Re: In Regards to the Issue that happened on Sunday GPT

Postby Pluggie » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:05 am

After seeing your post, I can say disappointment is an understatement. I am going to reply your points 1 by 1

lianlian85 wrote:Hi All
The Name is Ian or Wei Yan or Wee Yuen for those that know me I can be seen frequently playing in Jcube , GH , DP and NTS.
Just for the Information I was the Head Judge of the GPT on Sunday held at CMG: DG I will reiterate what happen during the GPT to the best of my knowledge and explain all the decision making and the observation made during the issue that came up with the event that happened. Do kindly take note all decision make are clearly Objective and there is no biases towards any party and if any statement that I made is offensive or if there is any mistake in my article do kindly point out I apologize upfront.

I will list down name as the following the people in the issue
Player A = Pluggie
Player B = Pluggie’s Opp

If not wrong the was Round 4 of the GPT I was walking around observing the ground when it come to my attention of this particular match between and Player A and B. Player B proceed to resolve commune with the god putting cards into the graveyard and choosing the card to put to hand, Player A stopped B and proceed to do counting on number of cards in player B hand and permanent he control. Player A feeling weird decided to call for a Judge (at that time I was there watching the game) after helping Player A to count the number of cards etc and that there is difference of 4 cards between A and B. From there I proceed with my investigation by asking a few questions to the 2 players in regards to the issue. I proceed to ask if any of the players know when the extra cards are drawn and during which turn. Both players reply saying that they don’t know. Next question I asked was if there is any card drawing effect or cards that may cause this issue both players says no. Next I asked if Player A if any point of the game if he forgot to draw his card during his draw step he went on to say if not wrong he did not forget to draw his cards

( I DID NOT SAY THIS SENTENCE. I SAID IT IS IMPOSSIBLE THAT I FORGOT TO DRAW A CARD AND ITS TURN 4., YOU REPLIED THAT SINCE IT WAS HIS TURN 4, HE SHOULD HAVE 1 MORE CARD THAN ME, BUT WE ALL CONCLUDED THAT HE HAD 4 EXTRA, ISN'T IT?) I have witness who was there to prove this and is willing to testify in my email to DCI.

next I proceed to ask Player B if he noe if player A did not draw a card during his draw step he says he don’t know and not sure if Player A forgot to draw a card. Lastly I look at player B and asked him 1 last time if he remembers if he draw any extra cards at any point of the game his answer was he dun noe how he draw the additional card and could not remember. Next I proceed to ask 1 last time if both players know how the extra cards are there they say they don’t know.(IF MY OPPONENT CHEATS INTENTIONALLY, DO YOU THINK I WILL KNOW HOW WHAT KIND OF TRICKS HE USED TO GET THE EXTRA CARDS? THE ONLY WAY I COULD KNOW WAS TO COUNT THE CARDS)

After listening to the statement by both players I proceed to let them stop the game and I went to have a discussing with my Scorekeeper regarding the issue. After much discussion and the evaluation of statement made by both players we came to the decision of making the following ruling and reference for your knowledge: (YOU ARE THE HEAD JUDGE, WHY DID YOU NEED TO CONSULT THE SCOREKEEPER WHO HAD NO IDEA WHAT HAPPENED? CAN YOU SHARE WHAT YOU SAID TO HIM AND HAVE HIM VERIFY IT? DID YOU PORTRAY THE ACCURATE STORY TO THE SCOREKEEPER?

2. GAME PLAY ERRORS
Game Play Errors are caused by incorrect or inaccurate play of the game such that it results in violations of the Magic Comprehensive Rules. Many offenses fit into this category and it would be impossible to list them all. The guide below is designed to give judges a framework for assessing how to handle a Game Play Error.
Most Game Play Error infractions are assumed to have been committed unintentionally. If the judge believes that the error was intentional, he or she should first consider whether an Unsporting Conduct — Cheating infraction has occurred.

Both players are expected to maintain the game rules and to share some responsibility for any errors that may occur involving public information. As a result, no attempt should be made to determine or correct any advantage gained in assessing the penalty and associated procedures for fixing the offense. Additionally, for most Game Play Errors not caught within a time that a player could reasonably be expected to notice, teammates and opponents receive a Game Play Error — Failure to Maintain Game State penalty. In multiplayer games, all participants in the match other than the offending player should receive this penalty if they meet the criteria. A third or subsequent Warning for a Game Play Error offense in the same category should be upgraded to a Game Loss. For multi-day events, the penalty count for these infractions resets between days. If the players are playing in a way that is clear to both players, but might cause confusion to an external observer, judges are encouraged to request that the players make the situation clear, but not issue any penalty.



Player B was giving a Game Loss due to drawing extra cards due to the fact that he is unable to account for the number of excess cards in his hand he was issue GPE DEC in Judging Terms

2.3. Game Play Error — Drawing Extra Cards
Definition
A player illegally puts one or more cards into his or her hand and, at the moment before he or she began the instruction or action that put a card into his or her hand, no other Game Play Error or Communication Policy Violation had been committed, and the error was not the result of resolving objects on the stack in an incorrect order. If the player received confirmation from his or her opponent before drawing the card (including confirming the number of cards when greater than one), the infraction is not Drawing Extra Cards.
Additionally, it is Drawing Extra Cards if a player has excess cards in their hand that he or she cannot account for.
Philosophy
Though this error is easy to commit accidentally, the potential for it to be overlooked by opponents mandates a higher level of penalty. If the identity of the card was known to all players before being placed into the hand, and the card can be returned to the correct zone with minimal disruption, do so and downgrade the penalty to a Warning.
Penalty: Game Loss

Player A was given a Warning for failure to maintain board state as his failure to catch the time when the player suppose is have drawn extra cards as Player A and Player B reach a board state that they cannot agree on

2.6. Game Play Error — Failure to Maintain Game State
Definition A player allows another player in the game to commit a Game Play Error involving an effect or action that he or she does not control, and has not pointed it out immediately. If a judge believes a player is intentionally not pointing out other players’ illegal actions, either for his or her own advantage, or in the hope of bringing it up at a more strategically advantageous time, they should consider an Unsporting Conduct — Cheating infraction. Not reminding an opponent about his or her triggered abilities is never Failure to Maintain Game State or Cheating.
Philosophy
If an error is caught before a player could gain advantage, then the dangers of the ongoing game state becoming corrupted are much lower. If the error is allowed to persist, at least some of the fault lies with the opponent, who has also failed to notice the error. Judges should not usually upgrade this penalty, as players will be reluctant to call a judge if they believe that they could receive a significant penalty as a result.

(IF I FAILED TO MAINTAIN GAME STATE, IT MEANS MY OPPONENT ALSO FAILED TO MAINTAIN GAME STATE, SO WHY ONLY I GET WARNING? WARNING + GAME LOSS BECOMES A BIGGER OFFENCE?)

(ADDITIONALLY, YOU ARE NOW SAYING THAT YOU FEEL I PURPOSELY LET HIM DRAW THE 4 CARDS THEN I CALL FOR A JUDGE, SO IF YOU HAVE THIS SUSPICION, WHY DIN'T YOU DQ ME? YOU ARE PUTTING MY INTEGRITY INTO DOUBT. PLEASE DO THE RIGHT THING AND CLARIFY. IF I CAN MAKE 4 ADDITIONAL CARDS APPEAR IN MY OPPONENTS HAND, I AM A PRO TOUR CHAMPION ALREADY, NOT A SCRUB TRYING TO GRIND GPTS.)

I have highlighted the important thing in regards to the ruling.
Getting the following statement from both party me and scorekeeper have determine that since that is insufficient information of the board state there was no where we cannot go back to the original state. Next I proceed to explain why both players they receive their penalty and Player A insist he want to appeal to the ruling of getting a warning for his infraction and I proceed to tell him the reason behind the ruling and explain that the decision is made final. Next come the issue why Player B was not disqualified for cheating was because there is insufficient evidence that indicate that he was cheating when a proper interrogation was made to him determine if he was aware that he drew the extra cards in which he said he cannot remember or aware of it



(IF YOU READ THE OTHER THREAD, YOU WILL SEE THE POST FROM TALLBOY THAT IF THE CARDS ARE TOO MANY, ITS A DQ, CAN YOU LET US KNOW HOW MANY IS TOO MANY? IS 4 TOO LITTLE?)


4. UNSPORTING CONDUCT
Unsporting conduct is disruptive behavior that may affect the safety, competitiveness, enjoyment, or integrity of an event in a significantly negative fashion.
Being enrolled in the tournament is not a requirement to receive an Unsporting Conduct penalty. Although these guidelines refer to players, other people in the venue, such as spectators, staff, or judges are held to the same standard of behavior.
Unsporting behavior is not the same as a lack of sporting behavior. There is a wide middle ground of “competitive” behavior that is certainly neither “nice” nor “sporting” but still doesn’t qualify as “unsporting.” The Head Judge is the final arbiter on what constitutes unsporting conduct.
Judges should inform the player how his or her conduct is disruptive. The player is expected to correct the situation and behavior immediately. However, while making sure that the player understands the severity of his or her actions is important, judges should focus first on calming a situation, and deal with infractions and penalties afterwards.
Definition
A person breaks a rule defined by the tournament documents, lies to a tournament official, or notices an offense committed in his or her (or a teammate's) match and does not call attention to it. Additionally, the offense must meet the following criteria for it to be considered Cheating:
• The player must be attempting to gain advantage from his or her action.
• The player must be aware that he or she is doing something illegal.
If all criteria are not met, the offense is not cheating and should be handled by a different infraction. Cheating will often appear on the surface as a Game Play Error or Tournament Error, and must be investigated by the judge to make a determination of intent and awareness. Penalty: Disqualification

And hence this ends my report for the issue. Kindly take note of the following things as Judges we are here to help and remedy the issue that occur between the players and we do whatever we can to help. During the course of the event Friend’s of Player A came and talk to me in regards to the issue and I gladly explain to them. I think is my failure to inform Player A to come do a discussion with me in regarded to the issue after their match as I was abit busy during that time I apologise for that.
If anybody got any queries about the issue or any ruling you can call me at 90626185 I will gladly help you (but of coz not during my work time la :lol: ).
Cheers
Ian



A few more things to add, you have not answered my question whether my opponent Joey Kang is from your team and your friend, if he is, do you think you are in the right position to make this decision?

I do not wish to post in caps, but I feel I had to, because it seems to me you are untrueful in your version of events. you are a magic judge and a GP top 8 player, are you sure you are not able to make out that it was within the first 5 turns?

I did not wish to make a scene yesterday even though I felt that I was treated wrongly, but your post makes me feel that I have to defend my integrity here.
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Re: In Regards to the Issue that happened on Sunday GPT

Postby Pluggie » Tue Nov 19, 2013 1:10 am

NDRue wrote:
bochup wrote:Lol. Your story quite funny leh. Player A found something wrong then he called judge wat, u give him warning. Then if i'm Player B, if i really cheated, i confirm act blur wat. Then talk about insufficient evidence, 4 cards is almost 7% of ur deck lor, still nt enuff? Ur clearly objective decision nvr use common sense one meh?
Usually I refrain from feeding stupid trolls, but I'll bite.

How about this then?
lianlian85 wrote:Next I asked if Player A if any point of the game if he forgot to draw his card during his draw step he went on to say if not wrong he did not forget to draw his cards
So on the other hand of the discussion, what if he was wrong? Would it instead sound like a simple setup to frame the opponent for an easy game win, or would it be an innocent statement of wrongdoing?

The facts and observations have been laid out in the open because of someone victimizing himself, and if there are still logical disagreements, take it to PM.


I really do not like to flames people and usually use this forum to trade and find out events. but your post is really insulting me. How can i magically make 4 cards appear in my opponents hand? If i can, I can be a pro tour champion already, not a scrub grinding gpts. and I have to retiterate that I did not say If i am not wrong, I did not forget to draw cards, I said it was impossibe that I forget to draw a card.
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