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Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Chat and discuss any Magic the Gathering MtG stuffs here! (Only registered members may post). Based in Singapore

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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby urns88 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:22 am

3 possible outcomes can be given.

1. Drawing xtra cards at the beginning of game - warning
This is not the case as decribed, as both parties presented their hands.
That made sure both had a 7 in the opening hand.

2. Drawing extra cards and upgraded penalty - cheating (alr covered by tallboy)
If the extra card drawn has not put into hand can be identified, and the card can be put back to the correct position, this can be downgraded to a warning.

Qn. Could you recall what u n yr opponent played on turns 1 - 4?
To find out roughly when the card drawing happen.
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby Vyrus » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:47 am

4 cards EXTRA is pretty much cheating. Unless the 'cheater' in point is a retard, if so, my apologies.
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby Marilyn_manson » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:19 am

fireiced wrote:Yes the penalty for drawing extra cards is a game loss and u will incur a GRV for failure to maintain game state and a warning will result. (Cause u let the drawing of extra cards go by a few turns)

The only crucial part the head judge missed is that he did not further investigate if your opponent is cheating which he has to do as your opponent did not call a judge upon himself when he has drawn extra cards.

The head judge must rule that the player is both attempting to gain advantage from his extra card drawing action and the player must be aware he is cheating then the cheating infraction can be ruled upon him


So if your opponent 'draw extra cards' without u knowing until, say a turn later, you get grv? Probably wanna revisit that chapter of the rule book. I just don't understand how can one given warning for catching 'cheats'. Can u imagine if he has incurred warning at earlier rounds?
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby mtg84 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:01 am

can u name the judge so that other shops can be at least be warned about him?
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby Pluggie » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:34 am

The Head Judge went to consult the scorekeeper on the incident.

My concerns are

1) Did the head judge convey the correct message to the scorekeeper during their discussion.

2) 4 cards is very serious, why the head judge did not interview us independently away from the table to verify the story.

3) I found out on turn 4, which i believe is a reasonable amount of time to realise that he has way too many cards. Why the warning for trying to protect myself from possible cheating. (Note: I am not saying my opponent cheated intentionally, but i believe it is reasonable for me to think so.)

This incident is very disturbing. In the furture if I am losing, I can draw extra since I only get a game loss, it doesnt matter anyway since I am already losing. I can just claim I did not draw extra cards and I do not know why I have it. Moreover if my opponent is already on a warning, I get a free game win.
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby Pluggie » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:46 am

urns88 wrote:3 possible outcomes can be given.

1. Drawing xtra cards at the beginning of game - warning
This is not the case as decribed, as both parties presented their hands.
That made sure both had a 7 in the opening hand.

2. Drawing extra cards and upgraded penalty - cheating (alr covered by tallboy)
If the extra card drawn has not put into hand can be identified, and the card can be put back to the correct position, this can be downgraded to a warning.

Qn. Could you recall what u n yr opponent played on turns 1 - 4?
To find out roughly when the card drawing happen.


To the best of my memory

Turn 1

Me land Satyr
Opp land elve

Turn 2

Me land firefist striker
Opp land caryathid, elve


Me land chandra phoenix
Opp land blood baron

Me land 1 drop
Opp land trying to cast commune with gods and i stop him and started counting.

After separating the 5 cards from the commune he still had 4 additional cards and thats the only commune he cast.


If I remeber correct there were scry land involved as well.

The above account is based on my best memory and might not be entirely accurate.

The Judge was Ian Khor, the guy who top 8 GP brisbane.
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby Marilyn_manson » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:44 pm

Pluggie wrote:The Head Judge went to consult the scorekeeper on the incident.

This incident is very disturbing. In the furture if I am losing, I can draw extra since I only get a game loss, it doesnt matter anyway since I am already losing. I can just claim I did not draw extra cards and I do not know why I have it. Moreover if my opponent is already on a warning, I get a free game win.


That's e part that disturb me the most.
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby bepaling » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:48 pm

Assuming your opponent kept 7 on that game and on the draw, he didn't draw extra four. Two at most, and one at best.

t1, draw (8 cards in hand), land -> elf (6 cards in hand)
t2, draw (7 cards in hand), land -> caryatid -> elf (4 cards in hand)
t3, draw (5 cards in hand), land -> blood baron (3 cards in hand)
t4, draw (4 cards in hand), land -> commune (should have left with 2 cards in hand) -> you stopped him here.

since he had 4 cards in hand, he drew extra 2. If that 4 cards in hand included the commune he cast on t4, that means he only drew one extra.

If scry lands were involved, it's within the realm of possibility he mistakenly kept the scried card (most probably t3 or t4 scry). In which case a game loss seemed like a perfectly acceptable ruling, no?

* Of course, I don't understand why you got the warning (I definitely think you should not have gotten a warning).
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby kyouta » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:14 pm

bepaling wrote:Assuming your opponent kept 7 on that game and on the draw, he didn't draw extra four. Two at most, and one at best.

t1, draw (8 cards in hand), land -> elf (6 cards in hand)
t2, draw (7 cards in hand), land -> caryatid -> elf (4 cards in hand)
t3, draw (5 cards in hand), land -> blood baron (3 cards in hand)
t4, draw (4 cards in hand), land -> commune (should have left with 2 cards in hand) -> you stopped him here.

since he had 4 cards in hand, he drew extra 2. If that 4 cards in hand included the commune he cast on t4, that means he only drew one extra.

If scry lands were involved, it's within the realm of possibility he mistakenly kept the scried card (most probably t3 or t4 scry). In which case a game loss seemed like a perfectly acceptable ruling, no?

* Of course, I don't understand why you got the warning (I definitely think you should not have gotten a warning).


I'm also guessing the scrylands caused the 'extra' draw. Alot of us are used to upkeep reveal for Delver, draw. Resolve for Ponder and Preordain, draw.
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby Pluggie » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:22 pm

Er, i dont remember exactly the sequence of plays, but the conclusion was he has 15 cards and i had 11.
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