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Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

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Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby HAHAKUKU » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:30 pm

Hey fellow judges, what's the penalty for such action? One player got away with just a warning today in a GPT event and I believed it's not this light a punishment. Any fellow judge can share his precious view? And this player drew 4 extra!
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby re_plagas » Sun Nov 17, 2013 10:38 pm

But didn't he got a game lost?
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby tallboy » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:11 pm

The penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT which has competitive REL is game loss. However if the player realizes he has accidentally drawn an extra card, then fails to call a judge in order to avoid a penalty he is considered to be cheating.
The criteria for it to be considered cheating:
• The player must be attempting to gain advantage from his or her action.
• The player must be aware that he or she is doing something illegal.
And the penalty for cheating is disqualification. In this case, drawing 4 extra cards sounds more like cheating, judges running the GPT today will have to investigate though.
You can refer to section 2.3 and 4.8 in http://www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards/WPN/Main/Documents/Magic_The_Gathering_Infraction_Procedure_Guide_PDF1.pdf for drawing extra cards and cheating respectively. Hope this helps ;)
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby Vyrus » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:22 pm

4 EXTRA cards ? The guy really MAGICian ah ? And the judge only gave a game loss? Wah, where he got his judging certification ? I also want to go try. :D :lol: Should definitely write in to the DCI about this. Shady players should be removed from the community!
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby Imabadplayer » Sun Nov 17, 2013 11:33 pm

Actually when did you realize the event happen. And 4 cards is a lot.
Can you be more specific with detail given !!!
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby Pluggie » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:06 am

Hi all,

I am the victim mentioned in this thread. I am going to explain what happened in the games and how i realised that my opponent had 4 extra cards.

After the pre match formality of shuffling and die roll, we presented our hands to each other and started the game.

I was playing mono red and he was playing junk colours so there are no card drawing in either of our decks.

After the first 2 turns i grew suspicious of the way he is playing. Holding the cards close to him, fidgeting etc.

On turn 4 when i asked him how many cards he has in hand, the answer was 5, i had only 1 card in hand. I realise he had more permanents in play than me.

He tried to cast commune with gods and I said wait as I wanted to count the number of cards, this head judge Ian Khor step in, after doing the counting for about 5 times, we concluded that my opponent did indeed have 4 extra cards.

My opponent claims that he did not draw extra cards and he did not know why he has 4 extra cards.

Subquently the head judge went to consult the scorekeeper and when he came back he ruled that my opponent will get a game loss for drawing extra cards while I got a warning for failure to maintain game state. I am appalled by the decision and I told the head judge that how can having 4 extra cards only result in a game loss and the kick in the teeth was the warning to me. I appealed and head judge said I am the head Judge and this is my ruling. He added 'I don't know why you have extra cards in your hand since you have no card drawing in your deck'.

Deep down I am furious with the punishment against me as I found out my opponent had extra cards and I am punished. But I had to keep calm as I couldn't chanhe anything.

I have contacted some players who were around at that time to verify my story and I intend to write in to DCI regarding this incident.

I am very concerned about the standard of judges in Singapore now.

In the past when i played, we had wonderful and fair judges like Clifford and Jinyi, but the standard of judging seems to have deterioted. Write a decklist wrongly is a
game lost and have extra cards is also a game loss?
I do not wish to say for certain thay my opponent cheated deliberately as I do not know him.

However I must insist that the warning to me is ridiculous as I am just protecting myself.

When I went around to relate the incident, I heard that the judge and my opponent is from the playgroup. (The Judge might want to clarify this) If it had been 1 card and the judge the vouch for my opponents character and say it is an accident,I might still have accepted it. But 4 cards is really too many.

The thing that must be clear to all is that after counting and re-counts, my opponent did indeed have 4 extra cards.

Thank you for reading.
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby Marilyn_manson » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:26 am

Probably in your writing u can comment on judge foils too. Too many ppl are becoming judges for Pokemon cards
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby Imabadplayer » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:03 am

Firstly, both player must confirm that they have drawn 7 cards each at the starting phase. I assume both player should have done so.

Next is the effect or trigger which has a window to allow him to draw a not.( He or she might have miss count a draw and draw an extra card)

Lastly is that head judge need to check wether if his card is stick together. This might cause the extra cards too.( But for this case, the player drawing the extra cards need to notify a head judge to remedy this problem)

But overall, drawing of 4 cards is really unbelievable. And how could this player not realize the amount of cards in his hands has such a big different.(Even a slow person also know the difference).
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby Imabadplayer » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:08 am

Marilyn_manson wrote:Probably in your writing u can comment on judge foils too. Too many ppl are becoming judges for Pokemon cards


Sorry Manson, judge are people too. They don't receive payment in cash. They have to find way to sell all these judge promo to get cash.
Maybe next time you can support judges by giving them cash in exchange for cards.
(And Yes wizard do "print" money, haha)
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Re: Penalty for drawing extra cards in a GPT?

Postby fireiced » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:50 am

Yes the penalty for drawing extra cards is a game loss and u will incur a GRV for failure to maintain game state and a warning will result. (Cause u let the drawing of extra cards go by a few turns)

The only crucial part the head judge missed is that he did not further investigate if your opponent is cheating which he has to do as your opponent did not call a judge upon himself when he has drawn extra cards.

The head judge must rule that the player is both attempting to gain advantage from his extra card drawing action and the player must be aware he is cheating then the cheating infraction can be ruled upon him
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